Episode 35 - Deep Dive into Mediation

Welcome to the top Texas Lawyers podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the law firm Abercrombie and Sanchez PLLC. You can find us on the internet at www.www.aswlawoffice.com or by calling 1-888-981-7509. Your hosts are Bryan Abercrombie and Samuel Sanchez. Bryan has been practicing law for 18 years, and he’s board certified by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization in the area of Family Law. Sam has been practicing for 13 years, is licensed in both Texas and Florida, and is a Certified Mediator. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and represent the opinions of the hosts. It’s not designed to provide legal advice for your particular legal matter, and it should not replace the advice of competent counsel. Welcome. We hope you enjoy the top Texas Lawyers podcast.

Good afternoon and welcome to the Top Texas Lawyers Podcast. I am Brian Abercrombie and with me, as always, is my co-host, Sam Sanchez. Sam, how are you doing?

Doing well, brother. Doing well. Basically. Know the crayons to your paper.

The chocolate milk to my Oreo cookies, I guess. I don’t know. Yeah. There you go.

Making your donut.

Or that’s regular milk. I don’t know.

The A1 milk, whatever it is, you drink it nowadays.

Hey, once takes us to my tea, though. No.

This is Texas. We don’t put A1 steak sauce on.

That’s true. That is true. 57 either.

That’s right. No ketchup. It’s just pure spice, baby.

Well, I am sporting the Vandy hat. Even. Even though I didn’t go to Vanderbilt. I’ve got this. Those boys in the world, the College World Series, big win last night. And we were in Nashville last week, so we did. We missed our episode last week because the boy was playing baseball in Nashville. So I got to do the little.

Tour and playing for Vandy pretty soon before you know it.

Yes. So if he’s if he’s going to be playing for them, he’s going to be he’s going to have to be playing on scholarship because it’s it’s a pricey it’s a pricey institution. Dollars dollars to go down. Sure. Yes, it sure is. But no, Nashville, great city, everything was was was awesome. And it’s always good to be able to spend time with kiddos and all that. Of course, you know, that last weekend was Father’s Day. So happy Father’s Day to you, Sam.

Ditto. Belated happy.

Yes. So anyway, we are going to talk a little bit about mediation today. So, Sam, what do we do on mediation? I mean, let’s let’s kind of tell him or tell him what the firm is doing these days on mediation.

Sure. Sure. We actually offer that service to both parties with attorneys and parties without attorneys. So if you’re what’s called pro se, meaning you’re representing yourself, we’ll do mediation for you as well. You know, it’s a really important topic. It’s something we’ve kind of touched on at different podcast episodes and we’ve been dealing with all kinds of law, but it’s a very powerful tool as far as helping to resolve matters and getting some very creative solutions that a court really can’t do.

Right. And that’s that’s the big key, right? There is solutions that a court can do. And it also keeps down the animosity between I mean, anytime you go into court, you’ve got to put your suit of armor on and you’ve got to get ready to do battle mediation, you know, keeps that from happening because animosity coming out of a courtroom after you’ve done battle, especially for two parents, is typically, you know, really, really can be really acrimonious for a long period of time. And for sure, mediation helps. I mean, at number one makes you a part of the solution. So you’re less likely to end up back and forth and to it. It keeps you from saying things, saying things you regret, I guess, so to speak. I mean, they say that for every hour that you spend in court, it sets the relationship between dad and mom or back a year, just in general terms.

Yeah, I think that’s fair, you know, and obviously like I know. Well, before we get too far into that topic, I just want to touch on the news for a minute. Oh, yeah, obviously. Yeah. You know, our corner, our news corner, just wanted to kind of pick your brain a little bit about Britney, our favorite fangirl. And Britney.

Britney was trending on Twitter recently.

Hey, man, she testified finally in open court about the conservatorship. We kind of we’ve done a podcast a little bit about that and how it can be money back.

She hasn’t had her money for a long period of time.

I mean, that is crazy conservatorship stuff when you can talk about like she can’t even remove her IUD without the court’s permission or the the person who’s managing her conservatorship issues to approve that.

So right as I understand that she wanted to change the person who was doing the the guardian of the person, right?

Yep. Yeah. She wants to change that. She wants to hire her own lawyer. Imagine that. Not being able to hire her own lawyer. I mean, it’s essentially it’s something that we’ve touched on, obviously guardianship, but I would tell you, like mediation to kind of tie these two subjects together so you can understand how it can be used. So these parties could absolutely go to mediation. A court can order parties from any aspect of law to attend mediation and they can agree to do it. So if you’re looking at it and saying like, okay, well, I’m contemplating a case, can I go to mediation in advance of filing the case? Yes. Can that can you what’s that agreement like? Well, it’s still binding as a contract when you do it within a case. Obviously, mediation, the advantage to like Britney and her situation would be if they were able to reach an agreement, then it’s binding an irrevocable right. That’s another big piece of what we’ll talk about here in a little bit.

But the mediations can be done in guardianships. They can even be done on appeal. In the case that’s on appeal, a lot of times they’ll order it back to mediation to see if they can settle something that the appellate court is going to have to rule on.

Yet even narrowing issues. You know, like so like in Britney’s case, if they wanted to go in and say, well, okay, well, we’ll agree to let you of the ten things you want, eight of them will agree to, then really, you only go into the judge on very narrow, limited issues, which a lot of times can help both parties. You’re not risking everything.

I mean, I’ve gone to I’ve gone to mediation on cases where we we had we settled everything with the amount of child support. So this was a non acrimonious thing where we went to court and we presented our numbers, they presented their numbers and the judge made a determination and it wasn’t it wasn’t a he said she said it didn’t turn out to be a, you know, a big gladiator fight. And it really, I think, helped the parties out in the end because they’re not fighting for every single every single sliver of furniture or whatever else. But yeah, that Britney and Britney Spears. That’s a great point because yeah, this is a it’s an ongoing and hot, hot topic.

Yeah. And I mean, I feel for any family in that situation, but obviously such a high profile person has become just obviously a huge litmus test for conservatorship in California. But really, I think it’s going to have nationwide applications because now I think courts realize that you just never know who’s in front of you and how that turns out. And any story can be picked up by the press and really kind of take it and put shine a light on it. And when you look at a lot of the things, obviously, I mean, we talked a little bit about the Britney documentary, but the things that they talked about in there were you kind of look at that and go, well, that’s just a little disturbing, you know, the type of control that can be taken from you. So.

I mean, and like, you can’t even make the basic, I mean, theoretic. Medically, she couldn’t take an aspirin without without this guardian’s approval.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they can say, like, if you fail to take your medication and we’ll have you committed again for treatment, you know, I mean, it’s just there’s a lot of power in those positions in that process. And so I just wanted to kind of touch on that because I know it was a follow up from previous conversations.

And no, it’s it’s it’s it’s definitely relatable for sure.

So but so.

Back to mediations, the more exciting stuff of mediation. Right. No, but mediation. Let’s let’s talk a little bit about a pro se mediation. You’ve done you’ve done a number of pro se mediations. Let’s talk about your experience with that.

Sure. Well, obviously, I’m a certified mediator. I’ve been a certified mediator for a long time. And I would tell you that the challenge about pro se is that and mediation really in general is that those two individuals are not lawyers.

Right. Or a non-lawyer friends. What is pro se mean?

So pro se you’re not represented by counsel when you go into this process. And so if you don’t have counsel representing you, that means you have nobody who’s really educated about the law to advise you about the law as you enter in an agreement. And that can make it very challenging for the parties and for the mediator, because the mediator who’s going to kind of be the go between to help these two parties reach an agreement, that person does know the law. Typically, mediators are going to be attorneys sometimes or certified mediator. Sometimes you’re former judges, depending on the needs of that case, who you bring in to be able to address those concerns. But what you’ve got to understand is like if you have a person who’s a layman about legal terms or about statutes or about presumptions, then you have to be very careful as a mediator about the information that you convey, because you can’t give people legal advice because you’re not representing them, you’re just trying to help them reach an agreement. And so a lot of that really is going to require pre work on the part of the individuals, right? So many times like in our process, we’ll send out very detailed forms that really kind of give somebody who’s not a lawyer an opportunity in their own words, to lay out their case and say, This is what I want and why I want it. And the advantage as a mediator is that when you get that information, you can kind of sit down and piece, piece together the puzzle in advance of conversations. You can see both parties, their sides, their reasoning. And what you’re doing is basically you’re looking for the middle ground, right? You’re looking for what we call the settlement Delta. That settlement delta is the part of everybody is on this side of the triangle and.

Your zone of settlement.

Yeah, that’s right. You’re trying to get them inside that triangle on issues. And when you actually spend some time with individuals and you understand their perspective, it’s really easy to kind of get people to brass tacks and say, okay, really, we’re only sideways about three or four issues and let’s take them one at a time and see what we can do. Know, a lot of times just doing that really helps people see that they do have a lot in common because most let’s just take a family law case. Most parents have a lot of things in common. They both typically love their children or they’re both typically, if it’s just property, highly invested in everything that they’ve accumulated during the marriage. So knowing that they care about those things, you already have a commonality, right? It’s just they can’t agree on what to give or what to take, what to be able to concede on. And so that’s really kind of where the mediation process.

Or they don’t know what the what the parameters of the law are with respect to what the presumptions are under the law mean with family cases comes a presumption. Both parents are presumed to be in the best interest to be considered conservators of the children, joint management conservators. And what does that mean and what are the presumptions and what is the what are likely outcomes in court? So you can make an informed agreement on a settlement if you know what the potential outcomes are, good or bad. So if you know what a judge is liable to do, then you can narrow that window of what you should, should or should not agree on pretty, pretty considerably.

Yeah. And I mean, that’s something that everybody wants to kind of hear anyways. Right? So if you don’t if you have an attorney, that’s what your attorney’s doing is telling you, hey, look, I’ve been in front of this judge, I’ve been in this court, I’ve dealt with this issue. This is what this judge is typically going to do on that. What mediation with parties who don’t have that, you really kind of have to put them both on notice that says, hey, look, these are the way courts handled these issues. Now, I’m not telling you whether you can get it or not based on your facts. I’m just saying that this is typically what’s going to come to your range of settlement. Yeah. And so where do you fall on this issue? Where do you fall on that issue? Well, let’s kind of see where we can talk about middle ground and where people towards some type of.

Because the term I hear often especially is people coming in and talking about full custody. I want full custody. Well, this full custody meantime or just full custody rights? Because there are two different things. There’s there’s decision making. And then there’s time. And they’re not mutually exclusive, so their independent time can be different from rights.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that’s a great point, Brian, that you make because many parents who come in and want to deal with those kind of issues, that’s the first thing they say is like, well, I need to be or let’s say they want to say I want to be primary. I know you’ve heard that a gazillion times. You know, I need to be the primary parent. And when you boil it down and you ask them, you’re like, What does that mean to you? Well, I just want to make sure that they have a lot of time with me. I want to make sure that I’m the person with the most amount of time. Michael, did you know that you could have the majority of the time and not be the primary parent? Do you know what I’m saying? So, like, there’s there’s all kinds of considerations that you’re going to spend some time kind of having conversations with. And I feel that that’s the most generous part of mediation because in court you and I both know, look, courts, courts are like gnats or mosquitoes, right? They’re going to give you a very limited amount of time and then they’re gone. Well, that’s.

If you need a week, if you need a week, you get three days. If you need a day, you get 3 hours.

That works. But in mediation, you can really set out blocks of time to have these types of conversations, to spend time with individuals to get to that, where a court really has to kind of gloss through issues because they have such a finite amount of time, because so many people want it. Mediation is your opportunity to really have some in-depth conversations and figure out where people are and what they need and how. But let’s catch it.

So let’s talk about maybe the most important element of of mediation. We’ve talked about why it’s important, why why you should do it. And it’s mandatory down here for all you all you folks in Harris County and Montgomery County mediation is mandatory. So in most of the courts, I don’t know of a court that is not mandatory in at this point and in Fort Bend County, for that matter. So you’re most likely going to end up at mediation either before temporary order is after temporary, or you may end up twice depending on how contested the case is. So it’s a good place to go. So like I said, like we talked about, it reduces the acrimony. It also allows you an opportunity to come up with creative settlements and reduces resentment and hatred and also allows you to be creative because you guys know you guys know your situation the best, you know your kids the best, that sort of thing. But let’s talk about the most important thing about mediation is the cost factor. So cost wise, you know, the typical let’s talk about the typical contested lawsuit. I mean, what what are those liable to run you? I mean, obviously, the ballpark is big, but at a minimum, you’re talking at least ten grand on a marginally contested case.

I would say that’s a that’s a that’s a pretty low number, too. I mean, I’ll be honest with you, I think especially now with the mandatory disclosures that are happening in most cases, you know, you get into contested cases, you’re probably spending $15,000. Easy, easy.

Right. So that’s that’s marginally contested, heavy contested case. It could be 50, 100,000 if you have to get experts involved. And even a contested property case, if you have to get business evaluators involved, do forensic accounting, all the different things that go along with separate property, prove ups, different things like that. It can cost it can cost 100 to 100000 or more. Mediation does cost per side. If you’re paying, you’re paying a mediator, sometimes paying $1,500 a side. I mean, it can be expensive, but. Cost wise, you’re talking about lawyers. Time for a day. If you use a lawyer and go into mediation, you’re talking about one day’s worth of time and the prep time for it versus prep time and trial and hearings. And you might get reset, you might get continued, you might get additional hearings, all of that stuff. You know, that can run. You’re talking about the difference of maybe a quarter of the price or 1/10 of the price. I mean.

Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt, Bryan. Without a doubt. That’s one of the biggest advantages of mediation. Let’s just take a contested hearing. I mean, just one hearing. And most of the time, people are going to spend in excess of $3,000 per side to go to a contested hearing. When you talk about the prep getting ready, the appearance, the stuff that comes out afterwards or as far as like reviewing orders and having to do that, it’s always a substantial savings if you can go to mediation and get stuff done than it is to go to court and have that done.

So two sides go into a mediation for a day. It’s probably going to cost, including the mediator, roughly 5000, maybe five, 6000 at the most contested hearing between two people, minimum, it’s probably 7 to 10000. Yeah, right. And that’s not a trial. A trial could be 20,000 or 50 even. Yeah. So that’s that’s the big benefit is there’s a huge cost savings. And if you’re if you’re pro se and Sam’s helping you mediate your pro se case, you’re talking about reducing that number even more. So the amount of money that you’re going to pay Sam to try to help you get your case resolved is going to be infinitesimally smaller than hiring two lawyers and having them hash it out.

Yeah, without a doubt. Without a doubt it is. And the other piece of it is people always ask like, well, okay, I’ve always heard that you reach an agreement and somebody doesn’t follow it. Like, what then? Well, the good thing about reaching an agreement in mediation is it’s binding and irrevocable. I mentioned that before, and people hear that and they’re like, Well, what does that mean exactly? That means there’s no crawfish. That means you can’t wake up the next day and say, Hey, you know what? I decided I don’t like any of those terms. I’m just going to do what I want. No, because if you reach a mediated settlement agreement during a case, then each party is entitled to an order based on that agreement. And so that means it’s enforceable on its face as it stands right there. I mean, you can go to court and say, I have this agreement. They said they would do this. I want you to make them do it. Of course it’s going to do that. They’re going to follow it because in Texas, specifically, mediated settlement agreements are extremely powerful, extremely difficult to set aside. So that’s definitely something that I always try to tell people at the onset of a mediation, which is, hey, look, guys, this is a great process. We can be super creative. It’s going to be absolutely binding. So you really need to understand what you’re signing and signing yourself up for because once you do, it’s in, you’re in. They can go.

All the way. There’s even a there’s even a Supreme Court case that says mediated settlement agreements can’t be overturned by the judge. Right. Absent fraud on the mediator, which is not never happens.

Yeah, very, very, very, very rare. So yeah, I mean, that’s and that makes it really powerful. And the other piece of it, we talk about creativity. Brian, I just want to touch on this for a second is when we say you can be creative under the law, that’s really a very unique term because the law is very rigid, right? It’s governed by statute, it’s governed by precedent. And what that means is that judges are confined to a box that’s very small. So being creative from the bench a lot of times gets you appealed and overturned because you have these rules, these parameters in which your decision has to be. And the legislature has carved out a tremendous amount of those and family law that, you know, the courts have done the same thing in civil law, probate law. All of these have tremendous amount of restrictions for a judge’s ability to do certain things. But when parties go to mediation, they can do all kinds of things so long as it doesn’t typically violate criminal law. So as long as you’re not reaching an agreement to perpetrate a crime, then it’s typically going to be enforceable. Well, what does that mean? Let’s just take a family law case, right? So we take the example of a court and conservatorship and standard possession schedule. Right. So a court is typically going to be bound by that statute, which means one party is going to get more time than the other party mediation. You could go in there and we could do an absolutely perfectly custom possession schedule that a court could never create. Fits everybody’s life, takes in 100 different types of holidays, takes into account expenses associated with that at court. It doesn’t have time to do that mediation. You have the time to do that. So it’s just it can be one of.

The one of the success stories I have from mediation is I had a muslim parent and a Jewish parent and they all wanted all the holidays. So we crafted an order in mediation that gave one parent all the Jewish all the Jewish holidays, the other parent the Muslim holidays, and they were able to split time and everybody was happy, as happy as they could be in a divorce. And that’s you’re absolutely right. You can you can come to some very clever and creative, creative solutions.

What I would just encourage people who are already involved in that process to if you haven’t talked to your lawyer about the benefits of mediation, it’s really a conversation you need to have with your counsel to sit down with them and tell them, Hey, look, know, I was listening to this podcast. They were talking about mediation and all these great things that can happen from it. We haven’t had that conversation yet. Can we talk about it? Where are we at in our case? Is this something that is applicable that we could use even even just to narrow the issue so that you don’t have to go to court if that you’re still going to have a fight about everything?

So I would also tell you, and that’s a good, great point leading up to the mediation, obviously, it’s a conversation you want to have with your lawyer, but what to be prepared for? When you go to mediation, you want to have the most up to date information you have you can have on the value of what you have. What that means is the value of your house, the amount of money that’s in your retirement account, the amount of money that’s in your bank account try to get as up to. I mean, we always do what’s called we call it a troop, but we always true up all the accounts the night before mediation so that we’re walking in there with the latest and greatest numbers on what everything’s worth, what we owe everybody, and so that we can make as informed decision as possible. You don’t want to go in there with a bank statement you had from six months ago. What if you what if the account value is dropped 5000 or or whatever during that time? You want to you want to have the latest and greatest numbers and be as prepared as possible in terms of what you have, what you owe. And so that way you’re making an informed decision when you when you’re when you’re settling your case.

I’ve got a crazy dog here. I’m sorry.



No one on behind the scenes here. You. You you’d be shocked.

Well, yeah, your point is absolutely spot on, Brian. You know, having concrete and up to date information is critical because a lot of times, you know, let’s talk about when mediations break down, what causes them to break down. That, in my opinion, is issue number one. If somebody comes to the mediation unprepared so that the other party then feels like I can’t trust this agreement because I can’t trust the information that’s being presented to me. If you’re not all on the same page about where you’re at and what it is that we’re talking about, there’s no way to reach an agreement. You’re hamstringing your your attorney, your hamstringing the mediator as far as trying to reach it doesn’t mean you could possibly get there. Just going to make it way more complicated. And the more time you spend in mediation, look, typically mediators are going to charge you half day, a full day. That may be 4 hours or 8 hours, but everybody gets overtime. So if you go beyond the 4 hours, you go beyond the 8 hours you’re paying, typically that that mediators hourly rate and they’re you know, they’re getting they’re getting paid. It’s an expensive prospect. So it’s always better if you want to come in and have an impactful conversation and maximize your chance of reaching any type of settlement on whatever the issue is be 100%. By that I mean be prepared, have communicated all the information that you have or be prepared to communicate that information to the other side so that they can feel comfortable reaching a deal.

So what’s the longest mediation you’ve ever had?

Oh, my God. Did three day mediation one time and it was 8 hours each time. So that’s 24 hours plus of mediating time. And I’ll be honest, it was it wasn’t a big estate. It all revolved around kids. But we had dad. He had a job that required tremendous amounts of travel worldwide. Mom also had a very difficult position that required a lot of time and attention. And so the challenge was how do we sequence the time for these kids? And both of them were very type-A, was type-A. And so both of them wanted schedules. The kids were one was an athlete, one was a musician. They had lessons everywhere from everybody. And they wanted to know, pick up and drop off. Everybody wanted a common calendar. And so it took a long time. That was a marathon one for sure, but we settled it.

So I had a I had a couple of I have a couple of two dayers one day we spent on property and one day we spin on kids so that. But the longest single session I had was a great judge. A great former judge in Dallas did a mediation session with me. You may know her, Francis Harris. She was she was an excellent judge. We started at 9:00 in the morning and we ended at 3 a.m..

Oh, my gosh. She did one with me till about 11. And we were all so tired. I was like, oh, my God, I couldn’t see straight. I cannot even imagine three brother.

That’s that’s 3 a.m. on a Friday night. So you can imagine everybody in my circle was super happy about the Friday night plans that we had to cancel to finish up a mediation. But but she did get the case settled. It was a very, very difficult case involving a a doctor and a wife. There was prenuptial agreements. There was all kinds of crazy stuff involved in that case. And it was a marathon. I mean, but I mean, the cost of that case going to trial would have been easily 100,000, probably $120,000 aside. So you’re talking about you’re talking about 13 hours of mediation or 14 hours or whatever it was and. Versus 240,000 at trial, you know.

Substantially more money in their pocket lock in away than than any other way. So it really it’s a great.

So, Sam, what have we got upcoming?

Well, I don’t.

Mean to cut you off, so.

No, no, no, no, no.


Please finish. No. All I was going to say, it is a great tool. It’s a powerful tool. So everybody should consider it. If you’re going to be involved in any type of dispute, it’s really something that’s a great way to come to a great conclusions. Now, aside from that, we’ve got some great subjects coming up on our podcast. We’ll be talking about the new Texas law, which allows everybody and their dog to carry concealed, to pack heat the pack a baby. We’re Wild West in it. And so we’re going to talk a little bit about that and things to know if you decide that, hey, you know what, I’m going to participate in that process and we’re going to talk a little bit about things. Absolutely. To keep in mind, both legally and just common sense, actually, that will help you kind of navigate those waters. We’ve got other podcasts that we’re going to be talking about. We’re going to be dealing with some estate planning. I know that we get a lot of comments about kind of that process and kind of what to look for. And so COVID is really kind of brought that to light for a lot of people, and they want to know kind of the information that we can pass along, I guess, you know. So there’s a lot of good stuff.

Yeah. And on the estate planning side, I mean, how easy it is to get a will and how much hassle it can save, you know, those that those that are left behind. Because the estates we’re dealing with right now and just a couple of clients that we’re dealing with are so convoluted because no will was left. And so we’ve got to track down these heirs and we’ve got to they’ve got all this stuff to do, whereas that’s something that you can do for your family. If you’re looking for something to do for your family, that’s something you can very easily do for your family and and and also for yourself in terms of explaining to everybody what you want and what your wishes are. So yeah, that’ll be a good upcoming podcast. We’re also going to talk about how we elect judges in Texas. I mean, that’s a we’re coming up on an election year and people need to know kind of how judges are elected, how do they end up on the ticket? And you know what those down ballot races actually mean. And that’s that’s another topic. And we’ll also be talking about what happens when the judge gets it wrong. If you believe the judge gets it wrong, what do you what are your options there? We’ve handled a number of cases now going to the Supreme Court and back again. So we’ll be we’ll be talking about those things as well. So we’ve got a lot of exciting stuff coming up here in the next couple of weeks. So we’ve got a summer doing podcast.

Sam There you go. Love it.

Maybe we’ll do one from the beach or something.

I like it. It’ll be like we can like by the pool. At least I got to blow up pool. I can put some water in.

So anyway. Well, thanks for the talk today, Sam. I really appreciate you as always. And we will see you next week. Yep, absolutely. And once again, let’s give our shout out to our great band who gives us our music. Sam knows them quite well. He’s related to one of the members. Let’s talk about that.

Absolutely. My son. Crush bouquet there. Great. Up and coming band. Let us use that intro music, which is phenomenal. So look for them on anyplace you download your music.

And look for them coming up and coming up and maybe some venues.

Let’s hope, right? Yeah.

Let’s focus on your local areas.

Here in the Austin area. You might just catch them. So definitely keep an eye on.

And so, Sam, how did they get in contact with you if they need you?

Sure. So if you’re trying to reach me directly, the best way is probably email. You can reach me at Sanchez at Aztec Legal. You can find us on the website at Aztec Legal. You can reach me directly by cell at 8179145470.

But Sam serves Dallas and Fort Worth. Well, we really serve basically Texas, but Sam served Sam’s offices in Dallas and the Fort Worth area. My office is in the Houston Woodlands area. I’m reachable at 2813744741 cell phones. 2147246106. And I’m also at Aztecs legal and be Abercrombie and Aztecs legal if you want to reach out to me we’re also on Facebook and Instagram so and links again as well. So we’re trying to cover our social media bases there. So you can also catch this podcast on YouTube and Rumble, I believe. So if you want to give us a like over there on one of those those. Those forms of weather like on Facebook, like on Instagram, like on YouTube or like on Rumble. The highly appreciative.

So there’s a topic you want us to kind of touch on. Don’t hesitate to send that to us too. Would be happy to. We’ve gotten a couple of those that will.

Yeah. And we’ll we’ll be talking about some other other topics and bringing on some guests here from time to time, because, I mean, real estate is becoming a huge, huge topic these days. And we have to we have an idea for bringing on some realtors to talk to talk shop. So we’re trying to put that together. So I think we got some got some exciting stuff in the works. Yeah, absolutely. All right, buddy. We’ll thank you for the time today. And we will we will see you next week.

All right. See you soon, too.


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